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Exigent
09-07-2007, 01:47 PM
So I've been looking at threat output recently and I've been noticing a trend. First off, as an aside, one current theory regarding weapon skill that has recently garnered a lot of support from testing is that 5 weapon skill (specifically the first 5 points that bring you to 355) grants around 3% to hit against a level 73 boss mob. There's a ton of theory-crafting and data analysis that's gone into testing weapon skill and thus far there appears
to be a non-linear benefit from the stat (i.e. it's more logarithmic like spell haste). That said, it then appears that we're looking for approximately 5.6% hit from hit rating so that combined with weapon skill (from Brutalizer) we'll reach the 8.6% cap for sword/board.

Back to threat, though, a couple of factors that I've noticed surprisingly adding up are:

(1) Threat caused by damage.

In defensive stance, the threat multiplier for warriors is 130%. Defiance is a 15% threat bonus, but since the values are applied multiplicatively, that boosts the threat modifier to 149.5%. Threat meters consider 1 damage equivalent to 1 unmodified threat. In other words, when a tanking warrior does 1 damage, he's actually generating 1.495 threat. This doesn't include the innate threat generated by skills, such as the bonus from Heroic Strike, etc.

Now what I've noticed is that a number of guilds bring an Arms warrior, presumably for the Blood Frenzy debuff since I doubt their DPS is very competitive. Blood Frenzy, fully talented, yields 4% additional melee damage to the target whenever the Arms warrior applies a bleed effect (either rend to guarantee 100% uptime or Deep Wounds if their crit rate is high enough). That doesn't seem significant at first glance. But consider the effect of multipliers. Suppose a tank did 100 damage. Following the defensive modifier, that's 149.5 threat. Factoring in 4% additional melee damage and the tank would have done 104 damage or 155.48 threat.

Toss in a threat enchant to gloves and the base modifier is boosted to 152.49%. Now that same 100 damage would yield 152.49 threat. With Blood Frenzy, you're looking at 104 damage yielding 158.59 threat.

Still seems insignificant, eh? Let's look at Teron Gorefiend from this past week:

Bazz did 98,799 damage in 4 minutes, 5 seconds (255 seconds).

With Defensive Stance, that's 147704.505 threat. 579.23 TPS.

With Blood Frenzy, that would have been 102750.96 damage or 153612.6852 threat. 602.40 TPS.

Factor in a threat enchant to gloves and you'd be looking at 156684.939 threat. 614.45 TPS.

Look at this another way:

98,799 damage * 104% (Blood Frenzy) * 152.49% (threat modifier) = 156684.939 threat

But threat is multiplicative, so we can compact the second two components as:

98,799 damage * 158.5896% (threat modifier) = 156684.939 threat.

In effect, with regard to damage, Blood Frenzy is the equivalent of a 4% threat boost. Longer encounters will only yield even better results as all of this scales well.

Let's look at the effect on DPS classes. Let's assume a class with zero threat reduction except for Blessing of Salvation, a 30% threat reduction. Salvation multiplies your threat generated by 70%.

So in order to get 1 point of threat, you can do 1 / 0.7 = 1.43 points of damage.

With Defensive stance alone, Bazz generated 147704.505 threat. The DPSer above could do roughly 211217 points of damage before passing Bazz. 828.30 DPS.

With Blood Frenzy, the DPSer could have done roughly 219666. 861.43 DPS.

With Blood Frenzy and the threat enchant, the DPSer could have done roughly 224059. 878.66 DPS.

So about 50 DPS gained for a player who only has Salvation. Rogues, DPS warriors and other classes that have other multipliers would gain even more. On average, I'd guess we have 14 DPSers in the raid. That's an allowable 700 DPS boost as a worst case scenario. More likely it'd be much higher than that when taking into account passive modifiers for the other classes. Also remember that this is only the threat we generate through damage. Innate skill threat is unaffected.

Is this worth it? Probably not, but it is one way to boost threat and overall DPS.

(2) Healing threat.

I've noticed that healing threat granted to tanks is about 4 times as large as that which we're accustomed to seeing. Between Prayer of Mending, Lifebloom, and Earthshield, Fusion tanks are getting approximately 20 TPS, whereas a number of other tanks are seeing anywhere from 80 to 100 TPS added. Taking into account the math above and you'll see that even 20 TPS isn't anywhere near as significant as it might seem when you consider the potential DPS gains as a result.

(3) Haste potions.

I used these for a while, but eventually became stingy as the cost is somewhat prohibitive. I'm noticing a trend among tanks to use these in place of other potions. This one is mostly self-explanatory and I'll likely be investing in a stockpile of these over the next month or so to see how things go.

Exigent
09-07-2007, 03:40 PM
Rogues and cat form druids have a passive 71% multiplier, so they'd have to do 2.01 damage in order to get 1 point of threat.

Defensive Stance: 296886.06 = 1164.26
DStance + BFrenzy: 308761.50 = 1210.83 (+46.57 DPS)
DStance + BF + 2%: 314936.73 = 1235.06 (+70.80 DPS)

Warriors have a passive 80% multiplier, so they'd have to do 1.79 damage in order to get 1 point of threat.

Defensive Stance: 264391.06 = 1036.83
DStance + BFrenzy: 274966.71 = 1078.30 (+41.47 DPS)
DStance + BF + 2%: 280466.04 = 1099.87 (+63.04 DPS)

There is an arcane talent called Arcane Subtlety that's a 60% multiplier, so they'd have to do 2.38 damage in order to get 1 point of threat.

Defensive Stance: 351536.72 = 1378.58
DStance + BFrenzy: 365598.19 = 1433.72 (+55.14 DPS)
DStance + BF + 2%: 372910.15 = 1462.39 (+83.81 DPS)

So you figure:

3 * Warlock ~= 150 DPS.
3 * Mage ~= 250 DPS
2 * Rogue ~= 142 DPS
2 * Shadow Priests ~= 100 DPS
2 * Shaman ~= 100 DPS
1 * Warrior ~= 63 DPS
2 * Hunter ~= 100 DPS
2 * Feral Druids ~= 142 DPS

So, in theory, the raid could boost it's DPS by around 1047 DPS. This is all assuming DPS gains that might take place if people were less hindered by threat. Not worthwhile, but interesting nonetheless. Who knew 4% melee damage could add so much to the ceiling?

Draugr
09-07-2007, 03:58 PM
You forgot the 3% crit from ret pally

Kuya
09-07-2007, 04:01 PM
I like maths.

sentaris
09-07-2007, 04:58 PM
WAY too much math.

Exigent
09-07-2007, 05:20 PM
I have a math degree. This is basic arithmetic. QQ

Xyebane
09-07-2007, 06:11 PM
So, you wanna spec arms or do you want to bring in another warrior?

also should not that is only for threat capped fights. Feral druids you should beable to wipe off that list of added dps cept for the first 20s of the fight, hunters shouldnt be threat capped after a few feigns on boss fights either.

I think the main classes youd see the dps boost from would be hardcore, trouble, dissent, and sentaris. Basically you have to ask is kicking someone else outta the raid for a arms warrior justify the increase to those 4 people to push alittle harder, and more practically would those people push that extra 5%?

Seems most people dont dance at 109%/129% cept for hardcore and back off before that.

Exigent
09-07-2007, 08:02 PM
Not worthwhile, but interesting nonetheless. Who knew 4% melee damage could add so much to the ceiling?

Xyebane
09-08-2007, 12:06 AM
i know exi, i read the whole thing, including the point about you mentioning its probably not worth it but interesting none the less :p

My points basically that there are alot of off specs that do the same for the threat ceiling, but we have a very solid raid group and there are already multiple people who have to sit each run.

3% crit from retri pallies and 3% hit from moonkin would also increase the threat you guys make.

Im not sure how hit equates to threat for warriors, but 3% crit should equal 3% damage and follow your calcs the same as the 4% dmg from arms.

Honestly, you and bazz both do amazing threat atm and i dont think many people are threat capped atm.

Exigent
09-13-2007, 09:17 AM
In my opinion, last night demonstrated pretty compelling support for Blood Frenzy. I wanted to contrast threat gains on Teron Gorefiend since it's really just a tank and spank from a tanks perspective and rage is plentiful usually. On our first pull, I noticed a remarkable improvement in threat according to Omen and while the second pull started out more slowly, it ramped up and was an improvement as well. Normally by the end of the fight, at least a few people are riding my ass and last night that wasn't the case at all. I had a confident lead and I'd contribute a good portion of that to Blood Frenzy.

(The second pull started slowly because I avoided a ridiculous number of attacks at the pull to the point that Thi said, "Take some damage!" and I was consequently rage-starved)

My DPS on Teron Gorefiend was close to 540, whereas it's usually around 400-420, and while that doesn't correlate perfectly to a 100 TPS boost, it is pretty remarkable scaling all things considered, especially when we often have windfury for the fight and last night I did not. I'd have to imagine that druids would scale even better given their raw damage output. According to the threat parser Kuya linked, TPS went up pretty significantly as well.

Averaging 1138 TPS on an incomplete calculator that doesn't take into account talents or Sunder Armor is pretty good in my opinion. In short, I think Blood Frenzy coupled with the 4-PC bonus of T6 and a Survival spec hunter can have a very dramatic effect not only on individual damage, but also on threat.

Cheers.

Xyebane
09-13-2007, 10:10 AM
I think its a combination of the t6 bonus with blood frenzy, as a 25% dps increase is obviously much more then the 4% blood frenzy is supposed to give ;)

I was impressed however, as i was seeing numbers i usually only got in the melee group while in the tank group, which was hot.

Thelastrace
09-13-2007, 02:07 PM
Taking Exigent's comments on Teron I can say for sure there was a huge difference. Although I don't have to worry about threat after I vanish, this allowed me to dps a lot more before having to worry about vanishing. I would assume this allowed a lot more room for those that can't drop agro to push the limit more.