Question for Punk

[Lucretius]

Hey Punkrocker,

I'm curious about your findings with the Mace-Sword Combination you're running. What are your thoughts comparing that setup with more traditional combat configurations (swords x 2, maces x 2, fist/dagger)?

I'm running Calamity's Grasp with Webbed Death but have Angry Dread and Remorse sitting in my bags. I've been tempted to try something like that out, but wanted to see what you're experiencing with that combination.

My guess is that Angry Dread just doesn't hit hard enough for it to be worth the switch...

[Almehym]

My best guess is it works for Punk simply because he's using the OH sword (which is by far the biggest proc'er of SS) and MH mace that are both of a decent ilvl. He also only uses them on fights that favor combat more than Mutilate, as he has the Algalon dagger for any fight that isn't clearly combat-favored.

In general, I would recommend against dual-weapon specs, and I'm sure that when we start getting more drops, Punk will go back to a traditional 1 weapon spec combat setup.

Perhaps he has more insight to share on the subject, as those are just my assumptions.

[Punkrocker]

I'm using that combo right now simply because they are the best weapons I have for combat. What Alm said is pretty much dead on, however I think that the spreadsheets are undervaluing sword spec.

Alm and I were talking about this in vent, and I pointed out that the spec/gear I'm using isn't really *that* bad...if you check out wowmeter online I have a top 20 rogue parse on Mimiron hard mode (as does Alm, from the same night) with the spec and weapons I'm using now. If it really sucked, or there was a significant difference between it and a one weapon spec, then I would expect all the single weapon spec rogues to own me on every combat friendly fight.

Although, I will admit the possibility that I just had an extremely good run that night. /shrug

[Lucretius]

I'm using that combo right now simply because they are the best weapons I have for combat. What Alm said is pretty much dead on, however I think that the spreadsheets are undervaluing sword spec.

Alm and I were talking about this in vent, and I pointed out that the spec/gear I'm using isn't really *that* bad...if you check out wowmeter online I have a top 20 rogue parse on Mimiron hard mode (as does Alm, from the same night) with the spec and weapons I'm using now. If it really sucked, or there was a significant difference between it and a one weapon spec, then I would expect all the single weapon spec rogues to own me on every combat friendly fight.

Although, I will admit the possibility that I just had an extremely good run that night. /shrug


Yeah, I took a look at a few of your recent WWS postings and noticed the DPS was definitely there. I also agree that swords is a bit undervalued in the spreadsheets a bit. Maybe its splitting hairs I don't know.

Alm I also agree that the iLVL is a good guide to use. Perhaps it would be better for me to wait until I have a better MH weapon from Ulduar before making the switch. I'll hit the target dummies a bit to see how close it is.

As always, thanks guys. Its also good to see that you guys try different things (outside of the cookie-cutter EJ stuff). PS-Grats on Algalon, great finish...

[Almehym]

To be clear, I used ilvl in that the weapons Punk has, in the combo he has (sword offhand to take advantage of 15% armor reduction on extra MH swings), as a comparison to what else he had available, which would be a fist dagger combo of some sort with CG MH. Since his best OH would be Golem Shard, he wouldn't be getting as much out of it as I do out of CG as my MH (since I have a better OH weapon).

Running the spreadsheet with all my gear, but swapping weapons and specs as Punk has it set up I get:

7146 with CG/Golem Shard
7129 with Vul'mir/Void Sabre

Since Punk has a different armor set than I do, he could be getting different results that puts the latter above the former. Regardless, the results are close enough that modeling inaccuracies/RNG could pull one ahead of the other easily on any particular raid.

[Punkrocker]

With the latest combat sheet, I'm showing the following:

7088 with my current gear/talents for combat
7113 if I change to use CQC, 5/5 Lethality and go with Calamity's Grasp mh with Golem shard oh.

According to Malvanas' simulation sheet:
10/56/5 Mace/Sword - 6,587
15/51/5 Fist/Dagger - 6,619

So both sheets show about a 30dps increase using CQC over Mace/Sword spec.

I still think they are both slightly undervaluing sword spec procs, and I'm not sure how accurate their armor pen calculations are, but I don't have the time to dig into their math and find any errors (if they exist).

I'll likely continue to use the combo and spec that I have since 30 dps is relatively small and within the bounds of RNG.

I ran some more sims with the 7/51/13 spec and found the results interesting:
Fist/Dagger - 6,763 (144dps increase)
Mace/Sword - 6,727 (5/5 mace spec)
Mace/Sword - 6,709 (5/5 sword spec)

I played around with shifting points between sword spec and mace spec but they all came out right around 6,727.

One final point...the only reason I'm playing around with this combo is that I lack two trinkets that both Alma and TLR have...Grim Toll and Mjolnir Runestone. So I'm missing a LOT of armor pen, one stat that combat really likes. If I can manage to pick up one or the other I'll probably look at all the sheets and change weapons around. I'm also watching for the mh sword drop because Aldriana has said that he thinks it might actually top fist/dagger with equivalent weapon dps. I tend to trust his calculations a bit more than Malvanas, but that's merely because Malvanas is newer to the spreadsheet game than Aldriana.

Hope this is helpful.

[Lucretius]

Its very helpful thanks for putting it together.

I think I have a bit more ArPen than you do with my gear right now (of course falling short in most other areas). Right now I'm running Grim Toll and Pyrite Infuser for trinkets, which works for the time being although my Hit Rating is a bit high.

According to Aldriana's combat spreadsheet, I'm sitting at about 6419 DPS with 15/51/5 and CG/WD.

Changing to a 10/56/5 build with CQC and Sword Spec and replacing WD with Remorse gets me 6405. I would tend to agree with you that perhaps they are rating swords a bit low. I'm also eager to use Remorse (and hopefully get either Razorscale Talon or Malice to go with it).

Of course if I was to get even Razorscale talon and switch to a 15/51/5 Sword Spec, the DPS finally surpasses the Naxx Fist/Dagger gear.

My thought here is if they scaled their gear properly, CG/WD should not be better than a pair of Ulduar weapons (although I realize CG has a high iLvl at 226). That said, we can't count on them scaling the gear perfectly.

I need to read up more on maximizing my stats for Ulduar. Since my token pieces are all still T7.5 (need 1 more T8 before its worth it to switch over), I may have different stat requirements than you for now.

Thanks again for the help.

[Lucretius]

So what do you think now that you have a couple of good swords?

I'm not sure how long ago you were able to switch over to combat swords, but from the recent WWS logs I've seen, you and Almahym are pretty close in both damage done and DPS from what I can see. Alm may be about 100DPS? further ahead? Not sure.

I know the spreadsheets are a good guide to use and I like using them, however there are of course so many variables that a spreadsheet to me is not the answer to everything.

Looks like a viable option though. I may go for this partly because I've been itching to go back to swords and partly because the other raiding rogue in our guild, Cnights, may want Golden Saronite Dragon when it drops for us.

[Punkrocker]

It's hard to say, because I've been very unlucky with getting an armor pen trinket to drop. I have neither Grim Toll nor do I have Mjolnir's, so I'm lacking a primary stat that combat favors. It appears to be higher dps than dual maces, and when I'm not doing EA I am competitive with Alm and TLR. Until I can score some more armor pen, I'm still in a "wait and see" mode. You'll notice that I've also swapped to the 18/51/2 spec, which parses out about 100dps higher on the simulation spreadsheet with my gear, and is (I think) one reason I'm able to keep pace with them.

[Lucretius]

Yes thats bad luck for sure with Grim Toll. I also see that with your gear you were able to take 2 points out of Weapon Expertise and put them into throwing specialization. I'm short on expertise so I might create a second combat spec for interrupts. The spreadsheet is telling me I'm still better off sticking to 15/51/5 though for my gear. I don't know if any of the other Ulduar raiding rogues on Turalyon are using swords but if I get a chance I'll share my findings since I have Grim Toll and am hoping to get MR before the next patch if I end up with either Serilas or Malice.

[Punkrocker]

Cool. I'd be curious to get some more data points.

I picked up the fist from Mimiron last night, so I might play around with a combat fist/dagger spec to see how it compares directly with swords. If you see my spec change, you'll know why.

And yeah, being able to go 2/2 Throwing is some nice utility...I had 52 interrupts on a single Vezzax trash pack just from spamming FoK.

[Lucretius]

Cool. I'd be curious to get some more data points.

I picked up the fist from Mimiron last night, so I might play around with a combat fist/dagger spec to see how it compares directly with swords. If you see my spec change, you'll know why.

And yeah, being able to go 2/2 Throwing is some nice utility...I had 52 interrupts on a single Vezzax trash pack just from spamming FoK.

I know what you mean. We got lucky last night in Uld. Cnights got Golden Saronite Dragon and I unded up with Malice (and had Remorse in my bags). I'm going to talk with Cnights about what he does with his FoK interrupts but sometimes he goes up over 100 (which is sick), especially on Yogg phase 1 and Thorim.

I changed from CG/Golem Shard Sticker to Malice/Remorse, and tested them out on a target dummy in Org. I went with my normal DPS rotation for a full Adrenaline Rush cooldown to compare results and found that my DPS went up by about 80 or so by making the switch. I have a ton of ArP in my gear so with what I have it looks like swords is viable, but perhaps still a tiny bit below Fist/Dagger. Still not 100% on it though.