Gear question

[Lucretius]

Hey guys, I hope you don't mind me poking my nose in here once in a while.

I've been doing a bit of theorycrafting looking at raiding gear and have noticed a couple of things you guys have done a bit differently than what I've read/seen elsewhere. Just wanted to get your 2 cents.

I've read on EJ and via Shadowpanther that basically the ultimate PvE set consists of 4 pieces of Valorous Bonescythe with the Chestguard of the Recluse. It looks like you guys might not quite agree with that as thelastrace wears Leggings of the Honored, and Djazzyjeff wears that as well as Frosted Adroit Handguards instead of the Tier pieces. I realize it *might* be a case that you don't have those pieces yet, but I'm assuming its because you don't think the 4 set piece bonus is worth it....What are your thoughts there? Is it a hit-rating issue since the hand and leg pieces have HR?

Also I've noticed you guys are stacking AP in your sockets. I've played around with the rogue spreadsheet alot myself and although very similar in numbers, I've usually seen a tiny advantage to stacking agility gems. Can you share your thoughts as to why you choose AP over agility?

For the record, what I'm going with is a combat 15/51/5 spec with Kel'Thuzad's Reach and Omen of Ruin right now cycling SnD with Rupture for the most part and filling in with the odd Envenom between cooldowns.

Lucretius

[Punkrocker]

There are a couple of reasons for what you are seeing.

1) Lack of Recluse chest (I think I'm the only rogue with it).
2) Even amongst ourselves we constantly debate what's best.

For example, I'm an agi guy. TLR thinks ap is better. We are close enough on the meters that it's probably a wash in practice, so he continues to gem ap and I continue to gem agi. Even EJ forums will agree that the difference is negligible.

You'll find TLR and I both agree on the 7/51/13 combat spec over the 15/51/5, however I'm running a sword offhand (Hailstorm) vs. his webbed death.

I know this probably doesn't really answer your question, but that's because it's not really cut and dried at the moment. The spreadsheets and Shadow panther favor the recluse chest over everything else, but it's a small enough advantage that mistiming a cooldown, or having a bad rng string can change who ends up on top. The spreadsheets are a good tool to use when planning for upgrades but they aren't perfect, especially when different specs/gear are so close in practice.

[Fox]

The main reason I have the offset pieces is that I usually raid as HaT spec. Since HaT spec relies on finishers instead of combo point builders, there is no reason to pick up the four piece T7 bonus. You are better off getting better stats through the off pieces.

That being said I do think the four piece T7 bonus is better for Mutilate and Combat specs than HaT. Saving an extra 2 or 3 energy adds up over time, beating out the slightly better stats from the off pieces.

However this will likely be a moot point when Ulduar gear is released. We will either grab new set pieces or other higher item level gear to replace T7.

[Lucretius]

Thanks guys,

Its nice to ping ideas off other rogues on our server once in a while. That makes perfect sense with HaT and the set bonuses. I tried HaT and hated not having more control over the combo points, but I've only tried it post-bug.

Thanks for the feedback regarding the socketing as well. It sounds like it doesn't matter much. I find it interesting that there seems almost to be 2-3 types of gear for each slot. Some offer HR or Expertise, and others stack crit and haste (an then of course there are the token pieces). It has kept things interesting by swapping pieces back and forth to ensure my hit-rating is capped properly and that my expertise doesn't suffer too much.

I've also struggled with understanding just how important that 315 HR really is. For example, if my HR was 280, would I waste my sockets stacking HR into them, or would it be better to even things out a bit more stacking AP/AGI and/or Haste/Crit if they're a bit low. I've been following the principle that we want to get to 315HR and 26 Expertise first.

In any case, thanks for the feedback and grats on getting some love from Blizz.

[Punkrocker]

Regarding hit: those numbers have all changed drastically with wrath. 315'ish was the old TBC number to shoot for, with 364'ish being "capped". Cap is now something like 450 (I don't recall the exact number, but it's up there), so all you really need to do is shoot for the poison hit cap, which in a raid with all debuffs on the boss is 236'ish. Don't gimp anything for hit past that number.

You actually want 236+ hit first, 25/26 expertise second. After that gem for agi/ap. I'm at a point in my gearset that I don't actively gem for hit and I'll likely be changing up some of my enchants since I'm well above the poison hit cap.

[Lucretius]

Thanks Punk, when I said hit cap I meant the poison cap. At first when you said the new poison hit cap is 236, I thought you were wrong but I haven't been taking into account we could have our druid use Improved Faerie Fire, which I don't think they've been doing unless one of our druid tanks is coming. I'll have to check. If thats the case, that changes a lot with regards to gemming and rearranging gear based on hit rating issues.

By the time I catch up to you in gear (never? ha), I wont need to worry much about gemming for hit either. Thanks again!

[Thelastrace]

Here is the link to the chart for all hit caps. http://elitistjerks.com/988165-post43.html

[Punkrocker]

Not only druid with FF, but also the precision talent in combat. ;) 237 hit with Precision, as indicated in the post TLR linked.

(Yeah, 236/237...I think the value is somewhere in between the two and the chart lists the higher value to be safe. Same with expertise being 25 or 26. You are fine with 236 and 25, but 237 and 26 put you over 100% and some people can't handle missing once out of every 8,946 hits.)

[Lucretius]

Haha yes. I don't mind missing once a week or so.

That said I may need to convince our raid that using those debuffs is important as they may not be using them (Improved FF/Misery) now.

By the way, Meridian has been reading and using Kyth's stratfu stuff (in particular the "how to run a safe Naxx quarter by quarter" "speeding up runs" etc... and we've really been able to learn a lot and get better in our runs. If you would pass on our thanks that would be great.

I'd love to see you guys write something up for the rogue thread and don't mind adding my 2 cents if its helpful at all.

[OrdOrh]

Since gear discussion is going on, I might as well take the opportunity to ask a question myself ;)

So I picked up Silent Crusader in my guild's Naxx run last night. Ridiculous looks aside, is the sword worth using in combination with hailstorm, in a sword combat spec? Just want some thoughts before 'zerking the darn thing (am rather broke atm :().

[Thelastrace]

Since gear discussion is going on, I might as well take the opportunity to ask a question myself ;)

So I picked up Silent Crusader in my guild's Naxx run last night. Ridiculous looks aside, is the sword worth using in combination with hailstorm, in a sword combat spec? Just want some thoughts before 'zerking the darn thing (am rather broke atm :().

I would say it isnt worth the enchant. Wait until a KT fist (10 or 25 man). If not then some for of daggers for a mutilate or HaT build. Mongoose can tide you over on a sword build, but swords just doesn't cut it in WotLK.

[Punkrocker]

Yeah, don't bother with berserker on it. Use mongoose to tide you over until you score a fist mainhand.

Sword spec took a significant hit with Wrath. Having said that, the Hailstorm is an excellent offhand, and before the next major patch hits it is, in my opinion, a better offhand than Sinister Revenge or Murder. The spec you'll want to use with sword offhand fist mainhand will be:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0xbZMgV0x0xaru0xRtx

Notice I left 8 points untalented...throw those in either Assassination or Subtlety, depending on your preference. That build, with 4 pts in sword spec, is competitive with fist/dagger builds. I used that spec for a bit until I got a Webbed Death and was still neck and neck with TLR on the meters. The reason it's competitive is due to offhand sword spec proccing mainhand hits. Once you pick up a webbed death, bank Hailstorm. It hurts having one of the best sword graphics in the game collecting dust in the bank, but that's just the way it goes.

[OrdOrh]

Actually, I do have a CG/WD combo. I'm currently specced mutilate with a WD/WD combination - what do you guys think? Given that I have best-in-slot combinations for combat and mut...which spec should I go?

[Punkrocker]

At this point you should go with which one you actually enjoy playing more. There's not really any difference between the two if you have best in slot for both, it comes down to individual performance.

[Ringz]

Hi! I have a weapon question for you. At the moment I got 3 daggers. Librerian's Paper Cutter (1.30 speed, 130dps), Anarchy (1.80 speed, 156.4 dps) and The Fleshshaper (1.80 speed, 143.3 dps). Which 2 should I use and in what hands? Some ppl have told me to use the highest dps one in mainhand, while others want me to use the fastest one even though the dps on that dagger is much lower then the others. Got some advice for me? Thanks if you do:)

[Punkrocker]

Hi! I have a weapon question for you. At the moment I got 3 daggers. Librerian's Paper Cutter (1.30 speed, 130dps), Anarchy (1.80 speed, 156.4 dps) and The Fleshshaper (1.80 speed, 143.3 dps). Which 2 should I use and in what hands? Some ppl have told me to use the highest dps one in mainhand, while others want me to use the fastest one even though the dps on that dagger is much lower then the others. Got some advice for me? Thanks if you do:)

Keep in mind that the answer to your question depends on a couple of things:

1) What spec? I'm assuming Mutilate and will answer accordingly.
2) The advice given now will change with release 3.1.
3) All the advice following is in regards to PvE, NOT PvP.

For Mutilate, right now, you'll want the Librarian's in your mainhand with instant poison on it, and Anarchy in your offhand with Deadly on it. That SHOULD give you your best dps right now. Obviously, you'll want to replace the LPC asap if you can with a webbed death, and the Anarchy with either Webbed Death or Sinister Revenge, but you may not be in a position to regularly run Naxx 25 for those options.

The reason for the faster mainhand with instant on it is due to the way in which poisons apply. Right now, instant poison (with the assassination talents that you pick up going for mutilate) is a significant portion of our damage, and you want to apply it as often as possible.

Post 3.1 patch all this goes out the window. They are changing poisons to be a proc-per-minute (PPM) so weapon speed becomes irrelevant. After 3.1, you'll want your faster weapon in your offhand and the slower one in your mainhand. There's still some discussion as to whether two slow weapons will be more dps than one slow/one fast. We'll probably have to wait for the final tuning and the release before we can get enough data to determine which combination of speeds is best.

[Ringz]

Thanks for the advice:) Don't think I'll get webbed or sinister's revenge in the nearest future, only my alt so doesn't raid seriously on him. Ah well, thanks again for the advice and good luck in Ulduar:)

[Reliv]

Reading what you said on Instant poisons, I have read multiple sources and tested myself that on weapons 1.40 speed or faster wound is the better choice. Thoughts?

[Punkrocker]

Right now wound is better if you don't have Improved Poisons. If you are mutilate you'll have imp poisons, which makes instant more damage on a faster weapon.

When I'm specced combat or hat I run dual wound.