Combat vs. Mutilate vs. HAT

[Punkrocker]

Take all this with a grain of salt, but after some testing here is my take on which specs the Fusion rogues should be in raids.

We don't run with an arms warrior. The dps difference between HAT and combat is, on average in our Naxx runs, anywhere from 600 to 1k dps. That's in the ballpark for how much raid dps is increased by having the Savage Combat debuff that a combat rogue brings (about 1k dps). So, without an arms warrior you always want one combat rogue.

After fulfilling that requirement, your second rogue should be HAT. It is the top dps spec right now, but in order to fulfill it's potential you also need a stacked group. We've run three hunter two rogue HAT groups for the numbers posted above. Ideally we want three hunters and either another pet class (DK, not a lock with a felhunter because felhunters suck) or a moonkin.

If you have a third rogue, they probably want to be HAT in the optimized group, though that will lower both HAT rogue's dps a little. It MIGHT be worth it to have them spec Mutilate (if they have the gear to do so) and put them in the tank group for Turn the Tables. There is no reason to spec into Master Poisoner for raids since that debuff is covered by another class.

[Thelastrace]

Looking at the run we did last night, I was at worst 300 DPS behind Punk who was mutilate. Some good amount of fights I was above mutilate. I know this was the first time you had been mutilate so rotation and such were probably off, however, I think that it is safe to say that the DPS loss of a second HAT rogue isn't enough to say mutilate is worth bringing. May need another run or two more to get the rotation right now but mutilate doesn't seem to cut it right now.

[Punkrocker]

Keep in mind that we weren't flasked and that shorter fights (like Patchwerk) favor combat due to being able to leverage your cooldowns in a shorter time frame. Also I messed up a few times throughout the night, specifically letting Hunger for Blood drop twice on two different bosses. I also let Slice and Dice drop once on Loetheb, and on another boss and had to blow cps getting it back up instead of on Envenom.

So, I failed pretty hard on running a decent mutilate cycle most of the night. Bottom line is I need more practice at it, but I'll be HAT from here on out unless Fox is around, in which case I'll probably be Mutilate unless one of you wants to try it out. I also need Webbed Death (possibly two) to really push the spec to it's maximum, and a couple of other upgrades would help. I think I'm borderline on having enough gear to make Mutilate viable, so I wouldn't take last nights run as a definitive example of the capabilities of the spec.

[Reliv]

Just a small interjection, Turn the tables is raid wide.

[Punkrocker]

Just a small interjection, Turn the tables is raid wide.

Good point, I should really read the talent description...I had it stuck in my head that it was group only just like HAT.

[OrdOrh]

Just a slight off-topic interjection - was wondering if one of you could enlighten me on HaT "rotations". Faceroll evis or wait for 5 cp to build up, primarily?

[Fox]

We determined it was better to use rupture in your rotations regardless of whether you picked up Blood Spatter or not. After you throw up SnD and rupture, you basically spam eviscerate until you have to refresh them again.

Since you are NOT using hemo to build combo points, I generally sit at max energy a lot during a boss fight; that is okay. It is better to save a global cooldown for a 10k eviscerate than waste it on a 1.5k hemo.

To prevent sitting at max energy for too long, I usually eviscerate at 4 combo points. Most of the time you'll get another combo point a split second before you eviscerate. More than likely you'll get relentless strikes to proc and gain most of your energy back.

[Reliv]

Interesting, Ive actually been excluding rupture. And not using hemo what-so-ever? hmmm darn you fusion rogues!!! more testing inc.

Also, I checked into your WWS for your speed nax. Now I am unsure were any of your rogues HaT? Because if so I did not use rupture, but I did use hemo on CP slumps. Heres the two links for our naxx last week.(Use if you want for whatever research) Also the build I am logged out on is my raid spec.

http://wowwebstats.com/5tzbmnmyl4wao (ignore the 20man title)
http://wowwebstats.com/s2dnl6w6u26rk

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=turalyon&n=reliv

[Fox]

I'm usually specced HaT (Djazzyjeff) for most raids because combat sucks. It looks like you used Hemo waaaaay too much. On Patchwerk for example, you have more hemo's than eviscerates.

Your eviscerate damage should be well above your white damage. If you don't use hemo, your eviscerate damage and overall damage will be much higher.

[OrdOrh]

Another question - my guild typically raids with only two hunters. As such, and given that we have two other rogues besides myself, would the best possible group for me be 2x Hunter 3x Rogue (myself included)? Or is there another class that would provide more crits? Thanks for clearing things up about the rotation - I figured SnD and Rupture should be up 100% from looking through the Fusion WWS reports, but I was literally spamming my evis button (resulting in 2, 3 CP evis) and had less than stellar DPS the first time I went HaT.

[Reliv]

Well preferably you dont want to have other rogues in your party. If youre the only HAT rogue then you should try to get 2 deathknights in there with you also. Although if youre running 3 rogues, you should want 1 to be combat for the Savage Combat debuff if you dont have an arms warrior raiding with you. In that case I believe 2 rogues,2hunters,1dk group might not be horrible, but its still not the absolute best case scenario for a HAT rogue.

[Fox]

Death Knights are the 2nd best class to group with for HaT. Not only do they have ridiculous amounts of crit, but their pets fuel combo point generation as well. If you can't find a good DK, then just grab a ret paladin or another rogue. HaT rogues generally have less crit than mutilate or combat fist rogues.

[Fox]

Since there is so much discussion going on about HaT, I thought I'd link my spec. Here it is:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhfZ0gc0x0xZe0fbhhkdAzVc

[OrdOrh]

Well, tried HaT for the second time. Group make as follows:

2x BM Hunter
1x Unholy DK
1x Boomkin

I'd say the only fights where I had enough CPs coming in to ensure eviscerate as a %age of my output was > white damage were probably Patch, Thad, Loatheb and Heigan. Damage was also pretty disappointing, losing out to a (albeit somewhat more geared) mutilate, and sometimes an equally-geared combat rogue. I'm not sure if this was due to bad play (possibly, since it was my second time playing the spec). It is also worth mentioning that the drood was pretty severely undergeared, so I think his crit rate wasn't quite up there. Do you guys notice the same pattern too, in terms of CP generation - and do you guys use Hemo at all? The general advise I've received so far is not to use it. Last but not least, are you guys more in favour of fast/fast or slow/fast weapons? I used a WD/WD combination yesterday, which could explain why the DPS was rather disappointing. I will try CG/WD combo today though, and see how things go.

Another problem I had (or rather my RLs) was splitting the raid for fights like 4HM, Gothik and Thad. Do I still generate CPs if my party members are across the room? I had sub-optimal group composition for a few of these fights. Would be great if you could let me know how you do the groups for this fight.

[Fox]

HaT spec is way more reliant on the gear of your group members than yourself. If you don't have a pet class (hunters or dk's) you are missing out on an extra combo point source. Plus if their crit rate sucks,you obviously aren't going to do as well. Since fights are so short in Naxx, it's kind of hard to benchmark against other specs. The fights you listed are the ones that actually last longer than two minutes, so its not surprising that you beat out a combat rogue who generally blows his load on cool downs for shorter fights.

From what I have seen from the really good HaT rogues who I benchmarked myself against, they use a CG/WD weapon combo. The cardinal rule for HaT spec is to not use hemo, but if you are forced to you'll get a little more damage from a slower weapon than a dagger. Its absolutely worthless to hemo with a dagger. As far as the range of gaining combo points from other players, i.e. Four Horsemen, I'm pretty sure it has unlimited range. I could be wrong since I haven't tested for it exclusively, let me get back to you on that one.

It's unfortunate that Fusion rogues won't be able to really test dps specs anymore becuase we are preparing for Ulduar. That means that we aren't using consumables and splitting the raid into two 16 man forces to maximize useful gear drops. We also have sub-optimal specs, like no unleashed rage/abom's might, so it's pretty lame....but economical.

At this point who really cares? HaT spec will be officially dead come Patch 3.1. Combat and Mutilate specs are getting huge buffs while Subtelty spec isn't being touched because other classes bitch too much about rogues in PvP. Altho there isn't damage modifiers in the top half of the Subtelty tree, I doubt Blizzard has the skill to buff HaT dps without buffing PvP. They also don't really care, and I doubt the rogue community does as well. I know the other two rogues in guild hate HaT spec and they don't give two shits if it isn't buffed in the patch. I'm actually going to spec Combat next week just because HaT spec is so group dependent; only running with 16 people severely limits your choices for optimal group composition.

[Reliv]

Heh, we should now throw up a thread discussing 3.1 raid builds...with the change to quite a few things in combat and assassination, things could get interesting :P

Hopefully I can nab CG before 3.1 ughh I want to go CqC for 3.1..stupid shield needs to stop dropping.

[OrdOrh]

That's true. I really didn't like the idea that once my group members started dying, or had to hold back on DPS, my DPS started failing too. Anyway, are you of the opinion that Combat is going to be stronger than Mutilate in 3.1, at least in the context of a raiding rogue?

With the change to HfB, it'll be interesting to see how mutilate rotations, in particular, opening, changes. I suppose garrote will become a must as an opening move in 3.1 - any thoughts?

[Fox]

It's hard to tell whether Combat will be better than Mutilate at this point. Although Combat received more buffs than Mutilate in the patch on paper (10% haste and 20% increased damage to Killing Spree compared to a 6% buff to hunger for blood) it will be much much easier to keep up hunger for blood.

Being able to keep Hunger for Blood up at all times without wasting energy trying to refresh it is a huge buff. I haven't played mutilate much, but it seems like it will much easier to play and the rotations won't be nearly as difficult. It's hard to tell which spec will be better at this point w/o testing.