Swords vs. Daggers and Haste stacking

[Punkrocker]

Just wanted to do a little more research on haste and it’s effects on both dagger and sword spec. Here’s some interesting numbers from the first Gorefiend attempt last night:

TLR
Melee damage – 136,574
Melee hits – 151
Avg Melee – 397
Sinister Strike – 47,596
SS hits – 42
Avg SS – 1133
Evisc – 8,117
Evisc Hits – 3
Avg Evisc – 2762 (he crit on all three)
Rupture – 6,084
Rupture ticks - 24

Punk
Melee damage – 127,162
Melee hits – 149
Avg Melee – 295
BS – 49,837
BS hits – 27
Avg BS – 1845
Rupture – 4,146
Rupture ticks – 16

So, what does this tell us?

First, look at the number of melee hits. I have more haste than he does, yet he had 2 more melee hits than I did. We both had windfury, so sword spec is actually giving him enough extra hits to overcome the haste difference. Also, since mh swords are more damage on average than daggers, his autoattack will do more damage than mine over time.

I want to point out something else about haste. As your swing timer approaches 0 (it will never reach it) you get less benefit from stacking haste. Therefore, a slower weapon will get much more benefit from haste than a faster weapon will from the same amount of haste. For example:

2.6 speed sword, hasted 50% will be 2.6 / 1.50 = 1.73
2.6 hasted 75% is 2.6 / 1.75 = 1.48

1.8 speed dagger, 50% haste 1.8 /1.50 = 1.2
1.8 hasted 75% is 1.8 /1.75 = 1.02

Look at the difference and how the speeds get closer with higher haste:

2.6 – 1.8 = .8 speed difference
1.73 – 1.2 = .53 speed difference
1.48 – 1.02 = .46 speed difference

Now, look at specials. I did slightly more damage with my specials than he did because my average backstab is slightly higher.

Backstab – 49,837 / 27 = 1845 / 60 = 30.76 damage per 1 point of energy expended

SS - 47,596 / 42 = 1133 / 40 = 28.33 damage per 1 point of energy expended

Pretty close, with daggers having a slight edge in damage per energy. Here’s the kicker though:

Energy to build 5 combo points:

Daggers 5 * 60 = 300
Swords 5 * 40 = 200

On average, sword spec is able to keep slice and dice up and do a finisher 2/3 more often than daggers is able to do.

TLR eviscerated 3 times and had rupture ticking 24 times to my 0 eviscerates and 16 rupture ticks.

Conclusion: In TBC daggers are inferior weapons due not only to spec, but also to haste and the effects of haste stacking. I know on the EJ forums they say that combat daggers is equivalent to combat swords for pve dps, but that is pre-TBC haste items. As you stack haste, the speed difference between swords and daggers approaches zero, yet swords (and maces), due to the damage range based on initial speed will not only put out more white damage, but can also put out equivalent yellow damage to daggers due to the spec allowing more finishers.

I would suggest giving all the daggers that drop from here on out to anyone but rogues (and fury warriors) and that all the melee should be looking for the slowest, highest damage mainhand we can get, while stacking as much haste as possible.

[Mokoko]

nice math, something else to consider in there is that with sword spec I believe you have more chances to proc combat potency (due to extra swings). that might be why hes getting more finishers. would be interesting to see how much energy return TLR recieved compared to you.

Just thossing it out there

[Rott]

The conclusion of the enhancement shaman thread is that slow/slow is ideal for them. Not many people left who will be taking daggers. Void crystals anyone?

[Iamjackzz]

May comment more on this later but one thing punk. TLR now has the tier 6 2 set bonus ( which owns) so hes s&d has 5% more haste than yours

[Draugr]

May comment more on this later but one thing punk. TLR now has the tier 6 2 set bonus ( which owns) so hes s&d has 5% more haste than yours

and he's a troll

[Punkrocker]

That probably rules out the haste difference then. I have the belt from Shade of Akama and he doesn't, I don't recall the haste difference on that, but for all intents and purposes we're probably dead even on haste.

So the only difference is in sword specialization, and even with slower weapons he's getting more white attacks then I am.

Only reinforces the conclusion that we should all be dumping daggers.

[Punkrocker]

Koko..he gets more finishers because he can generate 5 combo points by only spending 200 energy.

It takes a combat dagger rogue 300 energy to do the same.

200 energy is regened in 20 seconds. Slice and dice (with talents) is 30 seconds (34 with 2 set t4 bonus).

300 energy is regened in 30 seconds. Doesn't leave any time for finishers for a combat dagger rogue.

Add combat potency in and it gives the combat dagger rogue a little bit of time with good procs to dump a finisher, but it's still giving the sword/mace/fist rogue a lot more.

[Punkrocker]

On that fight that I took the data from (fairly short duration, only a couple of minutes, but I used that because both of us are pretty much able to go balls to the wall) we both regened 420 energy from combat potency. That doesn't account for any extra finishers on his part. It's purely due to the mechanic of needing 2/3 less energy per 5 cp's than dagger rogues do.

[Mokoko]

well I was only daggers for 1 day on my rogue, then I hit level 10 and went swords :p

so I dont know that much about daggers as I do swords/maces (pvp)/fists (crit build).

what really stands out in your numbers is that even with slower weapons TLR had more swings/finishers/dmg then the faster daggers

I agree 100% that blizzard while not implimenting properlly wanted all rogues to be sword spec. I will say that its much like it was pre-TBC with the only reason for daggers would be stationary fights lasting more then 6 mins where a dagger rogue can blow AR twice in a fight

[Punkrocker]

Yeah, and they put a ton of nice daggers in the new content while not putting many good swords in. It really makes me question their testing methodology.

I have always gone daggers due to timing of drops and everyone else going swords. Pre tbc I was always competitive (and still am) but TLR is able to beat me on the meters with "inferior" weapons. Even after they nerf sword spec, the haste factor is just too good to ignore on the slower weapons. The only way they could balance this out to make daggers attractive again would be to drop the energy requirement slightly (giving dagger rogues the chance to do more finishers) or up the crit rate on our white damage.

Any combat spec will be based on white damage, not yellow. If you look at the web stats and compare the rogues you will see that dagger rogues rely slightly more on yellow damage than sword rogues do, but white damage is still the majority of the damage we do. Therefore, by moving to slower weapons and maximizing our use of haste is the only logical way to increase our dps to it's highest potential.

[Thelastrace]

I also have Thundering Skyfire which is a good chunk of haste. Plus not sure if you did but I popped one or two haste potions during the fight.

[Punkrocker]

I also have Thundering Skyfire which is a good chunk of haste. Plus not sure if you did but I popped one or two haste potions during the fight.

Yeah, I popped haste potions as well. I totally forgot about the diamond though.

I was thinking more along the lines of passive haste, not procs, but the procs do play a part.

If only they made a 2.8 speed dagger...

[Thelastrace]

Looking at some of the other boss fights like najentus I had 319 hits to your 280. I had 22 Sword spec procs and 48 WF procs, and you had 17 misses (due to not being hit capped) and no WF since u were running dual poisons. That would show that you defiantly would have done more hits then I would have.

I'm not trying to say anything good or bad about any spec but just trying to show you that daggers isn't as bad as your saying compared to swords for the purpose of me having more hits.

[Punkrocker]

Looking at some of the other boss fights like najentus I had 319 hits to your 280. I had 22 Sword spec procs and 48 WF procs, and you had 17 misses (due to not being hit capped) and no WF since u were running dual poisons. That would show that you defiantly would have done more hits then I would have.

I'm not trying to say anything good or bad about any spec but just trying to show you that daggers isn't as bad as your saying compared to swords for the purpose of me having more hits.

That's why I'm only analyzing fights in which I know I had windfury buff rather than running poisons since that's a critical factor in number of melee swings. Otherwise you're comparing apples to oranges. The one I analyzed above we both had identical buffs (including windfury). The only difference is your sword spec procs.

In order for the white damage to be equal, I need to do 4/3 as many hits as you do since I do 3/4 the damage per hit.

So, in a fight where you have 300 hits, I need to have 400.

TLR 300 hits * 397 avg hit = 119,100 damage
Punk 400 hist * 295 avg hit = 118,000 damage

In any fight where we both have windfury I don't think you'll see me outhit you on a 4/3 ratio with our current haste setups.

[Ceres]

I want to point out something else about haste. As your swing timer approaches 0 (it will never reach it) you get less benefit from stacking haste. Therefore, a slower weapon will get much more benefit from haste than a faster weapon will from the same amount of haste. For example:

2.6 speed sword, hasted 50% will be 2.6 / 1.50 = 1.73
2.6 hasted 75% is 2.6 / 1.75 = 1.48

1.8 speed dagger, 50% haste 1.8 /1.50 = 1.2
1.8 hasted 75% is 1.8 /1.75 = 1.02

Look at the difference and how the speeds get closer with higher haste:

2.6 – 1.8 = .8 speed difference
1.73 – 1.2 = .53 speed difference
1.48 – 1.02 = .46 speed difference


Waitaminute, this is wrong. It's true that the absolute seconds shaved off each autoattack decreases, but each of those decreases results in an equally larger DPS increase. The % dps gain per point of haste rating is actually linear. I'd attach a spreadsheet but these forums don't support .xls

Think about it this way: if you shave .1s off a theoretical 2.0s weapon that does 200 damage/swing (100dps) you're now doing 200 damage/1.9s, or 105dps. (5% increase)

If you shave .1s off a theoretical .2s dagger that does 200damage/swing (1000dps) you now do 2000dps. (100% increase)


Haste also stacks multiplicatively with Slice and Dice for an extra 30% haste rating, it is easily the strongest melee dps stat currently available and is WAY underbudget.

[Xyebane]

Yes, techincally 1% haste = 1% more dps.

however Ceres, similar to ferals, combat daggers has a higher % of their damage from yellow dmg then swords.

For example, TLR runs around 68% white damage. I run at about 38% white damage.

Since Haste only benefits white damage, it is a much greater increase to TLRs overall DPS then it would be to mine.

This is why Dragonspine trophy, for example, should never be given to a feral druid over a Warrior, rogue, Enchancement shaman, or hunter.

While its true that on procs my white damage would increase by 30%, thats only approx a 10% overall DPS bonus to me, while a Swords rogue would gain ~20% overall DPS bonus.

[Punkrocker]

Seres, I'm not sure where you disagree with me, but my math is dead on. With the same % haste, the sword will get a higher reduction in speed (by virtue of it being slower to begin with), which will result in a higher increase in it's damage over a specific period of time. 50% haste on a 2.6 sword shaves .87 seconds off it's swing timer. The same 50% haste on a 1.8 speed dagger only shaves .6 seconds. The sword gets an additional .27 second advantage which will correlate into a higher amount of damage over a specific time frame.

[Kuya]

Here's the WWS for Furi from Blood Legion after he completed his legendary sword set.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=k5kadas5l2rrg&m

[Exigent]

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=k5kadas5l2rrg&m&s=12720-12891

Note: Their MT had an enhancement shaman!

[Draugr]

Note: Blood Legion often runs with 2 enhance shams <_<